COLOSSIANS 1:5 - AN ENCOUNTER WITH A TRI{3}NITARIAN ONLINE - SEE "THE HISTORY OF THE TRINITY" ON THE HISTORY CHANNEL FORUM
I have to apologise in advance for my bluntness in my response to Barry (a devout Catholic) below. Several members on the History Channel forum have a severe disliking for Jehovah's Witnesses and are not above posting very insulting and derisive comments about us. So over the year or so I have been posting there, I have become very blunt and to the point with certain people, but, without making insults or childish name calling etc. It is very hard to be nice and tactful with these ones who only have an agenda to smear our reputation.
Hi Barry long time no see.
Although you probably sincerely believe the information above, it is simply wrong.
It is also more than a little bit misleading if the writer knows Greek.
I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but here are the simple facts:
Enjoy your day.
Barry wrote:
Was Christ Created?
"Christ was the first of God’s creations." Verses cited by Witnesses in support of this claim include: "He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation" (Col. 1:15). "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen [Christ], the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation’" (Rev. 3:14).
In the first of the two verses, Witnesses think that "first-born" implies succession and inferiority. But the title "first-born" refers to Christ’s place as the chief and unique Son of God (cf. Rom. 8:29).
Further, the Greek of this verse can also be translated as "the first-born OVER all creation," as in the New International Version of the Bible.
Regarding the second verse from Revelation, it’s hard to see how it helps the Witnesses at all. It merely says Christ was the SOURCE of creation. This implies Christ is divine, since God created everything.
The fact that there was no time when the Son did not exist is indicated in John 1:1–3: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made." This passage also shows that the Son is not a creature because all created things were made through him, and no created things were made except through him.
copied from "Distinctive Beliefs of the Jehovah's Witnesses"
Hi Barry long time no see.
Although you probably sincerely believe the information above, it is simply wrong.
It is also more than a little bit misleading if the writer knows Greek.
I'm sorry to pop your bubble, but here are the simple facts:
In order for it to mean "...First-born ( OVER ) all of creation..." Or "...First-born ( SOURCE ) of all creation..."
The Apostle Paul under inspiration would have definitely used different Greek words to convey that meaning.
Gk., ( αἴτιός ) = "...cause..." or "...source..."
Gk., ( ὁ ἄρχων τῶν ) = "...the Ruler of the..." or "...the Prince of the..." or "...the Archon of the..."
Gk., ( ὑπὲρ ) = "...over..." or "...above..."
Gk., ( ἐπὶ ) = "...over..." or "...upon..."
Here is how it would have been written if it ( actually ) meant what the article above said. Also note the Greek in red is added to the text and does not exist in any MSS:
GREEK TEXT: "...ὁ πρωτότοκος ὁ αἴτιός πασῆς κτίσεως..."
“...the First-Born, the source ( of ) all ( of ) creation...”
“...the First-Born, the cause ( of ) all ( of ) creation...”
GREEK TEXT: "...ὁ πρωτότοκος ὁ ἄρχων ὑπὲρ πασῆς κτίσεως
“...the First-Born, the Ruler - ( over ) - all ( of ) creation...”
“...the First-Born, the Ruler - ( over ) - all creation...”
GREEK TEXT: "...ὁ πρωτότοκος ὁ ἄρχων τῶν πασῆς κτίσεως
“...the First-Born, the Ruler ( of ) all ( of ) the creation...”
“...the First-Born, the Ruler ( of ) all the creation...”
GREEK TEXT: "...πρωτότοκος ὁ ἄρχων τῶν πασῆς κτίσεως
“...First-Born, the Ruler ( of ) all the creation...”
GREEK TEXT: "...πρωτότοκος ὑπὲρ πασῆς κτίσεως
“...First-Born - ( over ) - all ( of ) the creation...”
GREEK TEXT: "...πρωτότοκος ἐπὶ πασῆς κτίσεως
“...First-Born - ( over ) - all ( of ) creation...”
But the ( ACTUAL ) Greek text reads differently:
ΠΡΟΣ ΚΟΛΟΣΣΑΕΙΣ 1:15 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
ὅς ἐστιν εἰκὼν τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀοράτου, πρωτότοκος πάσης κτίσεως
LITERALLY: “...Who is an icon/image ( of )-the ( of )-God ( of )-the ( of )-invisible, first-one-to-be-born ( of )-all ( of )-creation...”
"...Who is an image of the ( definitive ) God who is invisible, the first one to be born of all created things..." - (MATT13)
πρωτότοκος = adjective singular nominative ( predicate anathorus )
πάσης = adjective - ( genitive ) - singular feminine
κτίσεως = noun - ( genitive ) - singular feminine
The reason "...of all..." and "...of creation..." are in the feminine gender is because of the rule of concord or agreement so as to agree with the word for "...image..." or "...icon..."
εἰκὼν = noun nominative singular feminine ( predicate anathorus )
CONCLUSION: So your article is incorrect, misleading and simply wrong.
Jesus is definitely NOT being portrayed here as "...source, cause, ruler over..." creation but simply as - a part - ( of ) - creation and the first creature who was created.
This is conveyed by the simple genitive case in the Greek and is un-mistakable.
That is the natural reading of the Greek - un-forced - simple - and easy to understand.
The proposed translations quoted above in the article are - FORCED - PURE IMAGINATION - HYPOTHETICAL - UNSUPPORTED BY & SIMPLY NOT IN THE GREEK and I say down right MISLEADING!
Feel free to check the Greek words in Lexicons and check the Greek grammar as well.
